There's no telling how the NHL labor negotiations are going behind closed doors.

For that matter, there's no telling where those doors even are.

So closely guarded are the minutest details from the league's latest round of talks with the players' association, exactly what they're still talking about is still anyone's guess.

The sides held their third meeting in less than a week Wednesday in Toronto and were successful in keeping the exact location a secret. After the 5½-hour negotiating session, the only detail revealed was that another meeting would take place this week.

Although nothing had been officially scheduled by Wednesday night, the sides were leaning toward getting together either TOday or Friday in New York.

There is no secret that time is running out to save the hockey season. How the NHL and the players' association are working to prevent that has become a very big mystery. Talks were held in small groups again on Wednesday, three people representing the union and four on the league side.

"We will meet again this week," NHL chief legal officer Bill Daly said. "We have no further comment at this time."

Before getting together this week, both sides took a tight-lipped approach, adding they wanted negotiations to be out of the public eye.

During a two-day meeting last week in Chicago and Toronto, they tried unsuccessfully to get together in secrecy. Both parties believe they will have a better chance of getting something accomplished if they can talk out of the public eye.

"After meeting today, we have agreed to continue discussions and will not be making any further comment at this time," players' association senior director Ted Saskin said Wednesday.

Daly told The Associated Press on Tuesday that discussions were at a critical stage and that only days remained to reach a deal that would save the season. The fact that more talks have been set up provided at least a glimmer of hope that the NHL won't become the first North American sports league to lose an entire season to a labor dispute.

The lockout reached its 133rd day Wednesday and has wiped out 713 of the 1,230 regular-season games, plus the All-Star game.

The small-group format began last week with the hope that the sides could find common ground that would lead to a new collective bargaining agreement. All three sessions were held without commissioner Gary Bettman and union chief Bob Goodenow.

Although no details were available, neither side planned to make a new proposal on Wednesday because the participants wanted to generate ideas through an open dialogue instead of working on a formal proposal.

"We're in a critical stage, and that means we're down to days," Daly said Tuesday night.

It was Vancouver center Trevor Linden who came up with the idea last week to talk with just six people in the room. Linden, the NHLPA president, invited Harley Hotchkiss - the chairman of the board of governors.

The structure was successful in producing discussion, but it did nothing to close the gap in the philosophical differences.

The NHL still wants cost certainty, a link between player costs and team revenues. The players' association wants a free-market system.

The same group that met last week gathered again: Linden, Saskin and outside counsel John McCambridge as well as Daly, Hotchkiss - a part-owner of the Calgary Flames - and outside counsel Bob Batterman.

The only change was the addition of New Jersey Devils general manager Lou Lamoriello, a member of the NHL board of governors, who joined the league side for the meeting.

No proposals have been made since early December, when the players offered a 24 percent rollback on existing contracts as part of a luxury-tax and revenue-sharing system. The NHL turned that down and made a counterproposal five days later that was rejected in a matter of hours.