Two days of talking amounted to much of the same in the NHL lockout saga: no progress made, and more valuable time lost.

Even taking commissioner Gary Bettman and union chief Bob Goodenow out of the equation for two days didn't bridge the gap between the NHL and the players' association. The sides are still no closer to a deal four months into the lockout, and there are no signs they will reach an accord in time to save this hockey season.

Representatives from the league and union met for 4½ hours Thursday in Toronto, the second straight day they held discussions in an attempt to end the stalemate that has kept hockey news limited to negotiations in various North American airports.

"I can't say we're any closer," said Bill Daly, the NHL's chief legal officer.

They also held a five-hour meeting at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Wednesday, but they remained apart on the idea of cost certainty, a concept the players' association says is an unacceptable salary cap.

No new meetings have been scheduled, although both Daly and players' association senior director Ted Saskin said that the lines of communication remain open.

"We still continue to have a gap," Daly said. "We've had a much more fullsome discussion of all the elements of the system, but the bottom line is that we continue to have a divide on the philosophical issue."

Just like Wednesday, there were breaks in the negotiations so each group could huddle separately.

Following the two-day session, the only thing the sides appeared to agree on was that they are still far apart. Although the dialogue was described as being good, it didn't move anyone to change position on the key issue.

"We clearly have some strong differences of opinion that we've had for some time," Saskin said. "We continue to look for ways to bridge the gaps. We have not been successful in doing so."

More than half of the regular season - 671 of 1,230 games through Thursday - has been wiped out so far, plus the All-Star game.

This latest setback again pushes to the forefront the possibility that there will be no hockey this season.

"We all know time is not an ally," Saskin said.

If the season is wiped out, the Stanley Cup wouldn't be awarded for the first time since 1919, when a flu epidemic canceled the final series between Seattle and Montreal. The NHL would then become the first major North American sports league to lose an entire season because of a labor dispute.

There was hope progress could be made this time without Bettman and Goodenow, who were kept away in an attempt to have discussions without the acrimony that has built up between the leaders. This two-city meeting marked just the third time the league and players' association held face-to-face talks since the lockout was imposed by Bettman on Sept. 15.

"Obviously, everybody understands that the window of time we have in terms of playing hockey this season is very short, so hopefully we can have some more discussions," Daly said.