Former Butler County Commissioner Jim Eckstein, the defendant in a defamation case, was grilled Thursday by prosecuting attorneys after county Assistant District Attorney Ben Simon testified against him.

Simon’s testimony started the second day of the trial in county court. He spoke about a March 2012 conversation he had with Eckstein.

According to Simon, Eckstein relayed a rumor about former county Commissioner Dale Pinkerton being involved in a quid pro quo kickback.

According to Simon, Eckstein said state police Trooper Scott Altman got Pinkerton out of a drunken driving pullover in exchange for Altman’s wife, county human resources director Lori Altman, receiving an extra 20 percent pay hike.

“There’s no doubt in my mind that’s what he said,” Simon said.

Eckstein later disagreed.

“I think he was mistaken,” Eckstein said. “I don’t think Ben Simon is a liar.”

Pinkerton and the Altmans are the plaintiffs in two lawsuits being tried simultaneously.

Simon also stated Eckstein took credit for the state attorney general’s office investigation, which found no evidence of wrongdoing, into the rumor.

“He told me ‘I have the attorney general’s office coming,’” Simon said.

Attorney Timothy Wojton, who represents Eckstein, said the word “have” does not necessarily mean initiated. Simon disagreed.

Wojton questioned Simon’s accuracy in relaying the dialogue.

“I’m not prepared to state you’re infallible,” Wojton said. “We sometimes, occasionally, make mistakes.”

“That didn’t happen in this case,” Simon retorted.

Simon and Wojton haggled over how much time could have elapsed during the conversation.

Wojton argued there was insufficient time to say all the things Simon cited happening during the ride on the elevator from the lower level of the government center to the third floor.

Simon stressed a casual conversation switched to the subject of Pinkerton on the walk to the elevator.

When Wojton pressed Simon on the length of the conversation, Simon said he does not know how much time it took.

“I try to use the steps now,” Simon said. “I don’t time my elevator rides.”

Wojton asked whether Simon found the rumor believable upon hearing it. Simon said the prospect of a state inquiry into the matter lent it credibility.

“I had no reason to disbelieve him at that time,” Simon said.

During questioning by attorney Doug Linn, who represents Pinkerton, Eckstein admitted to discussing the attorney general investigation with various people.

“I never told anybody he was guilty,” Eckstein said.

He defended discussing the topic with others.

“I didn’t know this stuff was secret in America,” Eckstein said.

He refuted a report from the state investigation indicating he was touting the rumor as being true.

“That’s an unadulterated lie,” Eckstein said. “That’s garbage.”

Linn presented photographs of signs Eckstein previously displayed on his truck that disparaged Pinkerton for not wanting the county to retain ownership of the Sunnyview Nursing and Rehabilitation Center.

“You don’t like Mr. Pinkerton, do you?” Linn asked.

In one of numerous instances, Eckstein did not answer a question posed to him with a yes or no.

“If somebody sues you, it costs you a lot of money,” he said. “We’re not friends.”

Eckstein also denied he came into office in 2012 with a “hit list” of county officials, including Pinkerton, he wanted gone.

Two former Eckstein supporters, Itzi Meztli and Steven Hively, testified Wednesday there was such a list.

“There never was a hit list,” Eckstein said. “Steve Hively made it up.”

When Linn pointed out Eckstein kept claiming others were not telling the truth, Eckstein took offense.

“I believe you’re misleading the jury,” Eckstein said.

However, he did not refute some comments attributed to him.

Eckstein apologized for making a remark at an internal county committee meeting where he said he hoped the attorney general’s office took care of Pinkerton.

“I regret doing that,” Eckstein said.

Both Linn and attorney Al Lindsay, who represents the Altmans, asked Eckstein the same questions repeatedly over the objections of the defense team.

“You asked me the same question three times,” Eckstein said to Linn at one point. “You’re trying to trip me up.”

The prosecuting attorneys attempted to establish inconsistency between Eckstein’s testimony at a recorded deposition and comments made on the stand.

However, the subject matter often veered off on a tangent, seemingly stymieing the lawyers.

At one juncture, Judge Kelley Streib told Eckstein to not interrupt the attorneys while they were asking him questions.

Lindsay requested Eckstein review some documents Thursday night to be better prepared today to answer questions about information contained in them.

Testimony resumed this morning.